Advanced Element Skill Point Requirement

This thread is for discussing the latest change to Advanced Elements. As many of you know, we have opted to change the rules so that Advanced Elements now require a skill point. This change was made for two reasons:

1. To bring Advanced Elements into conformity with a other bloodlines which already require a skill point. This was done under the theory that even though an Advanced Element required two elements, people purchasing an AE got the benefit of whatever constituent elements they were working with. This was essentially a buy two get one free deal that NO other KKG benefited from.

2. To make skill points more valuable and to encourage people to get more skill points. It has been noticed that people have been leaning really hard into stats and more or less neglecting skill points. Staff feels like 10 SP are probably more than what the average player needs. However, rather than reducing the total number of SP (a far more drastic and far reaching change) we decided to make them more useful and valuable by requiring them for AEs.

Now it seems like people don't like this new change and truthfully a lot of builds were messed up by this. In order to decide whether this rule should be rescinded, we wanted to hear from you.

The more people respond and the faster is the quicker we can determine whether this rule should be nixed.

I have no horse in this race, but I feel the changes force too many Skill points to be used. From my understanding, just to have an AE now, it would require no less then 3 Skill Points dedicated to elements. Even for those making B rank shinobi, this would mean half their skill points needs to go to that alone, taking away from being able to pick skills and potential stat raises by trading SP.

By how this is worded, staff looks at it as 'Other KG have to invest a skill point to have the bloodline limit, so why shouldn't AE', yet from my perspective as is you have to invest at least 2 skill points into it to have it, already 1 more then required for other KG. Adding another to buy the advanced element itself, while requiring the elements that make it up, now we're talking 3 points invested just for a bloodline limit. If investing 1 point can unlock crazy abilities such as Sharingan, why should AE clans have to invest 3 for access to their abilities? That sounds unfair, triple the requirement compared to other non AE KG. Please let me know if I misunderstood something, as someone with only 1 character who is clanless--I have no stake in this and I haven't looked to far into it.

I also see that this change totally messed up someone's build they was working on, I didn't see if they resolved that issue in some way but it just shows that this was a pretty major change, effecting members pretty harshly.

1. To bring Advanced Elements into conformity with a other bloodlines which already require a skill point. This was done under the theory that even though an Advanced Element required two elements, people purchasing an AE got the benefit of whatever constituent elements they were working with. This was essentially a buy two get one free deal that NO other KKG benefited from.

I'm a little surprised at that reasoning, honestly. The way I see it, an AE currently costs two skill points to get. How? Because you must purchase both base elements. Without these, you can't access your AE. This in comparison to any other bloodline which requires only one skill point to be spend into a KKG-bound skill.

That being said, I would personally not be worried about raised skill point cost even if it doesn't seem all that fair (see above perception) compared to other KKG. I've played an AE user for over two years before, where picking an AE locked you to those elements without the ability to learn others. While not every AE is as powerful or versatile as the other, all it takes a little bit of synergy and element cycling to become a reputable presence.
As example: my char's 'trinity' was advantageous against 3 of 5 base elements, and I layered myself against a fourth element in the course of time. Yes, that is all you'd need to become a durable presence with the 'right' AE. But it is true some AE require some in-game build up and actual experience with the char to get to that point. The best builds are those you 'build' up rather than jumble together at char creation - experience is the superior teacher.

I also understand the player base's worry. So in case staff decides on maintaining the stat cost change, I'd rather suggest ideas for compensation.
- Rather than resets, grant all those who currently have an AE a 'free skill point' which goes into the AE. Power-wise, it won't change anything about their character since they already have the skill. Administrative wise, they fall in line with the new rules. The rule is implemented, and therefore every new character must abide by the new rule. I believe that, while annoying, giving up a skill point you don't own yet is a lesser pain to endure for any current build than completely resetting your char and risking to lose it all.

2. To make skill points more valuable and to encourage people to get more skill points. It has been noticed that people have been leaning really hard into stats and more or less neglecting skill points. Staff feels like 10 SP are probably more than what the average player needs. However, rather than reducing the total number of SP (a far more drastic and far reaching change) we decided to make them more useful and valuable by requiring them for AEs.

Understandable, but the question rises: is it the fault of the AE that skill points are less desired? I doubt that. If SP is spend on other things than skills, one must ask the question why this is the case. Generally, the answer is: there are too many. If that is not your worry, nor is it your desire to lower the skill point pool, then the next question is: what can you do or buy with skill points? What is the worth of each trade? We quickly come to the conclusion that stats are used for practically everything, and so their value skyrockets. Perhaps that must be removed from the options... or other options should be offered which can be held on equal value. Buying up a minor land? Owning a solid building worth x ryo? Perhaps a unique/unparalleled craft? More fate points? One of those limited slots? There might be something out there that can have an equal impact.

Honestly I'm not going to deep into the whole "People pay 2+ Skill Points for other BL's 1 Skill point that offers better benefits."

That's been gone over a lot already, and will be probably repeated add infinitum. Because well. It's true (other BL's need Bloodline Skill to work. AE's need Element Skill points to unlock.)

But rather. I'll hit up the second thing. You want to incentivize Skill Slots over Stat Raises.

Stats have a Universal, Passive use in the world.

Str: How much force you can physically exert. Useful in nearly every physical activity.

Con: Implant Survival, Poison Survival, Damage Resistance.

Stam: How many techniques you can do, and how powerful said techniques are.

Speed: 2 Tiers higher than the opponents perception, You are functionally unseeable. Tied to Coord to be able to Turn. And Con to survive insane speeds.

Coord: Control Jutsu, Make Seals, Make Crafts, Use tools, Do dextrous movement, Along with Str determines Bow and Projectile everything.

Int: Chemistry, Implant / Surgical Buffs, Fuuin Buffs, Genjutsu Buffs, Learning Buffs, Precogs.

Perc: Tracking Buffs, Seeing movement (Needs Coord to react), Hit rate.

As you can see. Stats have massive incentive. Skills? Nowhere near as incentivizing as Stats. Nor do they give Passive Buffs / benefits to owning them.

Sure Fuuin can preserve stuff (But is Int Dependent) and Tai/Buki/Ken/Kyo is cheaper than other skills.

But they don't really have the same value as Stats.

A person with a high Stat build will dominate 9/10 a High skill build.

So you:
1) Are artificially Inflating the importance of AE Skill Pointd (Making them pay more in every way shape and form than other BL users.). While other BL users gain More Skill Point usage Right off the bat.

2) Don't actually raise the Value of Skills to be on par or above the value of Stats.

3) Punish AE users for going AE. Not on purpose. But make a cost comparison in terms of points spent.

Refinement AE: 1 Skill Point (same as BL users.)

2 Element AE: 2 Skill points (1 high than other BLs).

3 Element BL: 3 Skill points (What you are asking most to pay now. Which is 2 Skill points over every other BL user.).

Duel AE KKG: 2 to 5 Skill points (1 to 4 more than other BL.)

Yet the only incentive they have is "You can use this spiffy BL. By paying more."

And you are asking them to pay anywhere from 2 (for a AE: Refined Element) to 7 (highest Duel KKG mix)). Which is somehow equal to 1 Skill point all other BL.

4) Don't elevate Skills worth. Or give other incentives for having lower Stats and High Skills (aka to be Skilled but Weak, rather than Unskilled but Strong.).

I simply feel as someone that's been here for a while throwing this out two years after a character is made destroys them. If it had been like this at the start people builds would have been vastly different but they already pay one more Skill point for advanced bloodline because you have to take the element. So, in reality, taking an AE already puts you behind others in stats as well as skills so making it cost three literally makes having an AE feel like punishment. I do not think this should go through, if it does there should be a grandfather clause to those that have been here for longer than six months with those characters and have put a lot of work into them.

I don't really know how the system worked before this change and I don't use AE's so I am unsure about how it really worked before, but I would suggest instead of making the AE a skill point requirement perhaps a exp requirement instead as I have heard those that have all their stats max talk about have exp to spare.

So for an AE clan I would say yes they would need to invest a skill point into their two base elements, and then give the AE a ridiculous cost of exp like how the other clans require exp to gain in their bloodline, only since there is not leveling up an AE like there is the sharingan just give it a one time cost of (buttload) exp maybe.

This to me seems like it would be more balanced with other clans

I think the rule change is a bit drastic. It screws with everyone's build as a whole which is resulting in an overhaul of the character as a whole. I agree with a lot of what has been said here already. Just gonna sum it up in a nice little list.

1. Messes with a character build
2. Makes Advanced Element undesirable due to already having to spend two skill points to even get the advanced element perk. To have to spend another point is a bit much.
3. Referring to two it kind of punishes those for going AE over some other KKG. So dojutsu only costs 1 skill point but AE costs 3?
4. By having AE costs three, people miss out on skills they could obtain with that one extra starting point or putting it towards a stat.
5. Skill points are hard to get considering you have to rank up to get them anyways. So they do have quite a bit of importance. 10 seems like a lot but it really isn't when you consider three of those skill points go to stats to break that pesky cap.
6. Stats, of course, have a higher value than skills due to what they stand for. Skills just open up new avenues whereas stats control the outcome of actions in combat. So stats are of course weighted heavier.

My general thoughts are that this change makes advanced elements just too expensive. Realistically before, to use an advanced element, you needed to spend three skill points. This was one skill point for each element, plus one for ninjutsu, which was more or less the basis of every advanced element. You could obvious make a high int build, but that's a specific edge case where you could have to focus your entire stat build to get around spending one skill point. This change makes it cost now four skill points to use any dual-element advanced element clan. This is incredibly expensive because:

You don't really get 10 skill points.

I mean you do, but not realistically. The meta is apparently such where basically everyone does three skill trades. It's more or less a default, and you've hinted towards this in your original post with your reasoning of wanting to incentive using skill points more. Realistically builds seem to be planned around having seven skill points and three skill trade at max. That brings you down to 7 skill points.

Secondly, you usually won't even have that. Assuming you hold off on all your stat trades until the very end, you'll get your last skill point at S-Rank. How many S-Rank characters are there? The majority of players spend the majority of time having much less than this. This is the truth of all roleplay sites, that the majority of people spend the majority of their time at a low rank. Not everyone gets to S-Rank, let alone X-Rank. Analyzing how expensive the skill point cost of spending 4 skill points is at each rank instead paints a more realistic picture of how expensive this is.

D-Rank: 4 Skill Points is 100% of your Skill Points, or 4 out of 4
C-Rank: 4 Skill Points is 80% of your Skill Points, or 4 out of 5
B-Rank: 4 Skill Points 66% of your Skill Points, or 4 out of 6

Starting off as a Genin, your build is 100% focused on advanced elements. You have no other options for versatility if you want to start off actually having your element. You get one other skill point you can spend at C-Rank to do whatever you want with, and then another at B-Rank. This severely limits your options for play style.

It should be emphasized that having essentially two base elements and one fancy element isn't bad. That's not the argument I want to make here. It's that it forces literally everyone who takes advanced elements into cookie-cutter, near identical builds at early game. Everyone is going to have to take their three elements and then ninjutsu if they want to take advantage of their clan. It severely limits the potential for build customization.

I also think in general this is the wrong way to go about incentivizing plays into doing less skill trades. If you want to make skills more valuable, don't make people spend more of them for basic builds or lower the number of skill points they get, because this doesn't address the actual issue. If players are always taking the full skill trades and feel stats are better than skills, just buff skills. This can be done through giving more skills little passive abilities, like the ones that Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, and Kyujutsu get. All three of these abilities are amazing. Ninjutsu's affinity element lowers one element's chakra cost by one rank, Taijutsu lowering the cost of Taijutsu techs by one rank, and Kyujutsu's eagle eye giving you vision to the horizon, are all very good passive abilities that make the skills very worthwhile to take. Kyujutsu will always be an unpopular playstyle just because of how it is, but it's still good and worth its money regardless. If more skills were given perks along these lines, the decision on whether or not do trades would be made more difficult.

This is a change that should have been implemented earlier. At this point, characters have reached a certain point in their lifecycle, and players have invested a lot of thought and care into their design. Everyone has covered the other points brilliantly, but I'll just say that its too late for this implementation.

This reminds me of a landlord hiking up rent without warning after signing a lease.

Okay, we have heard for a large amount of the memberbase on this issue. We have decided to rescind the rule for the time being although we will continue to have conversations on how best to correct the potential imbalance with respect to skill points and advanced elements.

For now the rule is officially repealed. Thank you all to those who commented and gave your thoughts in this thread and on Discord!